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prong collars - your views

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prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:16 am

Yay or nay? And why?

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Huskymomma on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:20 am

not for me personally. I dont like the use of anything that restricts my dogs breathing. SIlly I know but I just dont like it. I will never use a choke chain or even a semi slip. The first thing I did when i learnt angel was being walked with a semi slip was get kerry to change it.

I just dont like it, I wont penalise anyone who does use them I just wont use it myself.

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:22 am

tecnically lou none of the collars you've names restrict breathing any more than a regular collar, only the choke does.

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:23 am

I would If I needed to stop unwanted behavior and other collars wern't working or not as well as perhaps a prong collar, But only if I was confident it wasn't hurting the dog to much


Last edited by James_Kita on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Tikaani&Aiyana on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:49 am

Ok if it is used properly & for the right reasons
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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:11 am

Tikaani&Aiyana wrote:Ok if it is used properly & for the right reasons

not because 'my dog looks well ard innit bruv' rolleye

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:26 am

Sid_Wolf wrote:
Tikaani&Aiyana wrote:Ok if it is used properly & for the right reasons

not because 'my dog looks well ard innit bruv' rolleye

haha Sid you're trying to make grey look like a "badman!" afro

Razz

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:44 am

grey is a badass, he doesnt need any special collar! lol

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:04 am

No I know, but you know "Badman" as in the way G's say it!

But yeah Is still the most Badass Husky ever! Very Happy

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Tan J P on Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:44 pm

i dont like them and would never use one.
there are pro's and con's with every training device but i personally just dont like this one at all.
i saw a huge boxer/mastiff with 1 when we used to take Shadow to puppy classes and to be honest the dog was scared witless,maybe it wasn't being used correctly,but i got really upset at this poor dog cowering down when the lead was pulled to correct his behaviour.
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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:48 pm

Neutral was the Boxer/mastiff a puppy or puppyish? or full adult?

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:20 pm

when using a prong the lead shouldnt be pulled hard, most of the correction is done automatically if the dog pulls, if not you gently pull back slowly. They were probably snapping the lead which yes would bloody hurt.

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:35 pm

Up early again Sid Razz?

Careful this will become habbit Wink

But yeah I think you have to be very careful with prong collars, But if used in the right way can be beneficial.

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Jesssy on Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:37 pm

I wouldn't use them myself because at the end of the day they train by discomfort / fear. If all other options had been exhausted i could see why some would use them. However with at least 10 different types of headcollars and the same number of harnesses designed to help with lead walking it should be a very rare need.
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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Tan J P on Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:42 pm

James_Kita wrote:Neutral was the Boxer/mastiff a puppy or puppyish? or full adult?

he was just gone a year old
she said he had very serious behaviour issues,but the way he was cowering and he also yelped just broke my heart.
like i say,she maybe wasn't using correctly,but it was awful and i would have to exhaust absolutely every available method before i even thought of using one!
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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:48 pm

I recently bought one to try on my guys. Harnesses dont work (any harness = workin to my lot, regardless of how much time they spend spinning!) and they find headcollars aversive, especially my boy, who will throw himself to the floor and rub his face along it with his bum in the air

i've tried the prong, and my guys arent fussed, it had the desired effect and all of them were MUCH more relaxed, Grey especially. They werent in any pain (my guys would let me know, they're total wimps) and seemed much happier than when wearing their headcollars!

They arent designed to inflict fear or pain, just be uncomfortable, which tbh is exactly the same reason headcollars and some non pull harnesses work

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:58 pm

I wouldn't use them myself because at the end of the day they train by discomfort / fear

I wouldn't say it causes fear, only discomfort and at the end of the day its just correcting unwanted behavior.

There is absolutley nothing wrong with physically correct bad behavior in a dog (as long as its responsibly) At the end of the day its how they would learn in the wild, Mothers will growl or bite etc to stop her pups doing something she doesn't want them to do.

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:28 pm

this is a good read...

THE PRONG COLLAR REVISITED
fact vs. fiction

Julia Maclachlan

Of all the tools used in dog training, perhaps none is more widely misunderstood and maligned than the prong collar (also known as the pinch collar). Many well-meaning but misinformed people assume that judging by its looks, the prong collar is a barbaric device intended to "stab" a dog's neck in order to correct misbehavior. While walking my own dogs on this type of collar I have encountered complete strangers who think nothing of telling me how cruel I am to use such a harsh device. While I am indifferent to this type of comment, I worry that similar incidents will drive responsible dog owners away from using this excellent, effective and kind (yes, kind) training tool on dogs that benefit from it the most. This article is meant to reassure those who are already using the collar or are considering it and more importantly, to educate those who think it is "cruel" or unfair to the dog.

While many people think that the prong collar is a trendy new gadget for the modern dog owner, the fact is that it predates the much more commonly used choke chain. Prong type collars appear in photographs and sketches in European training literature from the turn of the century. Presumably invented by people who relied on their dogs' obedience, responsiveness and good attitude in a time when most dogs had actual "jobs", the prong collar still has a prominent place in the "toolbox" of the modern, balanced dog trainer.

The prong collar works on the concept that evenly applied pressure is gentler and more effective on a dog's neck than the quick jerk and impact of a choke chain or the steady, relentless pressure of a flat collar. While a professional trainer can make a choke chain correction look fast and flawless, it is very difficult for most pet dog owners to master the timing and the release of the correction. Also, even a perfectly executed choke chain correction is a repeated impact on a single spot on a dog's neck. The current trend of the "head halter" system is equally flawed. In an earlier edition of this article, I referred to it as a good choice for dogs with structural problems. In the past few years I have spoken with veterinarians, trainers and owners who took issue with that recommendation based on the potential insult to the soft tissue of the dog's upper neck and the often careless way in which the headcollar is used by people who are assured that it is "humane" and cannot harm their dog. Like every other training tool, it also has its place. However, for a breed already beset with potential spinal and structural problems such as the Doberman, I find myself recommending it less and less. The self-limiting tightening action of the prong collar also makes it a safer bet for strong-pulling dogs. A prong collar can only be pulled so tight, unlike the choke or slip collar, which has unlimited closing capacity and in careless or abusive hands, can cut a dog's air entirely.

Another aspect of the prong collar is its simulation of a natural "correction" that one dog gives another. If you watch a couple of dogs interacting, you'll notice that a lot of mouthing behavior takes place. Dogs have evolved over tens of thousands of years to tolerate the toothy attention of their canine friends and family, usually in play or posturing and sometimes in a more serious mode. The degree of intensity in their mouthing can be inhibited or increased depending on their relationship with a particular dog and the issue at hand. Likewise, the prong collar can be configured in several ways other than the traditional "live ring" setting that most people use. It can be deadened by hooking both the " d"-ring and the "o"-ring together, rubber tips can be put on some or all of the prongs, prongs can be reversed so that there is only pressure on certain areas. Many of the prong collar's loudest critics are unaware of these variations of its use and throw the word "pain" around freely. A close look at the actual prongs will tell a more perceptive person about the concept of "pain" as delivered from a prong collar: the tips of the prong are very blunt. The larger the prong, the milder the pressure. Put a prong collar around your own arm or leg (or neck, if you must!) and judge for yourself. Now take another look at your dogs as they play roughly: the type of mouthing they solicit from one another in fun would send a human being to the emergency room and yet it barely ruffles the fur on their necks. Remember this when you see a prong collar; not only doesn't it "hurt" your own ultra-sensitive human skin, when correctly fitted and used, it is only a fraction of the pressure dogs use with one another.

The prong collar is often referred to as the "hearing aid" collar: a dog properly introduced to it in the hands of a person likewise prepared suddenly understands the expectations upon him. Rather than the nagging of a choke or slip collar or the constant muzzle and poll pressure of a head halter, the dog feels no pressure at all except at a precise instant when he makes an incorrect decision. Because of its ease of use and the usually rapid positive change in the dog's attitude and behavior, the prong is an excellent choice for elderly or physically compromised people with strong dogs, small people with large dogs, and even the tiniest of the toy breeds which risk permanent damage from regular collars. Even dogs with certain structural problems can be worked successfully on a prong collar rather than allowed to drag their owners around on a harness!

So, with all of the good stuff associated with the prong collar,shouldn't every dog wear one? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Some dogs, due to genetics or a poor upbringing, respond poorly to any sort of pressure. Some dogs have spinal problems so severe that no pressure should ever be put on them; these are often dogs who would benefit more from the judicious use of an electronic collar, which uses no overt physical force at all. Very dog aggressive dogs can sometimes escalate their behavior if the prong collar is used primarily as a correction around other dogs. They are often the best candidates for head halters. A good dog trainer will assess your particular dog and your own handling skills before recommending any type of method or equipment. In your search for that trainer, stay clear of those who swear by only one tool, one theory, or one way of doing things. While we balanced trainers have benefitted from their limitations and make lifelong friends and clients of their "failures", they are responsible for many dogs and owners parting ways. Many a dog in the DRU shelter bears the label of "untrainable" from a trainer who was inflexible.

The next time you see a dog being walked or worked on a prong collar, think before you jump to conclusions. Does the dog look fairly happy and comfortable with his handler? Does the handler have control without restraint? Ask people who use them how they like prong collars and why they chose this tool for their dog; they'll probably be relieved that you want to be educated and that you're not going to accuse them of cruelty to animals! If you use a prong collar on your dog, try to educate those who would judge you as "harsh" rather than responding defensively. Most of these people mean well: they are quite willing to learn the truth and will be flattered that you take the time to explain it to them. There will always be erstwhile "trainers" and owners who are ineducable due to their personal opinions or emotions. Try not to worry about what they think: your dog will keep reminding you of what he knows. Since we at Doberman Rescue Unlimited are in it for the dogs first, we endorse the use of prong collars on many of our charges.

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Jesssy on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:42 pm

There are 2 sides to every story and statistics can be manipulated to say what the people want them to. I can see how a prong is better than a choke chain (always have been able to) but still it wouldn't be something i would ever use or reccommend. I also feel there is a big difference in them being used on dogs with lots of fur around ther neck than short haired thin skinned dogs.
I am aware everything can be used incorrectly which is as much the problem as the tool being used.
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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:47 pm

yea i doubt my guys feel it, plus with their fur im less likely to be screamed at in the street by nutters who automatically think im abusing my dogs!

In my experience all of my dogs were happier walking with the prong than with headcollars (and I've tried a fair few!) tails up and waggy and a much better posture.

I understand people are gunna think im some awful cruel owner, but the truth is my dogs are my life, if i thought they we're in any pain i wouldnt be using them!

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:55 pm

Indeed I think it depends on the dog and their owner.

If the owner is resposable (like Sid), knows how to use it and it has a beneficial impact on the dogs balance and it doesn't induce fear or anxiety then I don't see anything but a positive outcome using the prong collar.

However if the dog is very very sensative around the neck and the dog is being caused alot of pain by said collar, then its probably better to go for something else, in that case though It'd probably be best to use a harness as even a regular collar may hurt the dog.

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Florence24 on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:11 pm

Nope hate prong collars think they should be banned just like shock collars. I think they are just way too easy to be abused compared with the few who use them correctly. I don't think they should be able to be bought so readily for Joe Bloggs on the street, same as choke chains etc really.

Choke chains and slip leads are a better option I think, WHEN used correctly. Sadly I think only 50% people with them use them in an OK way and only about 25% of those people actually know how its meant to work.

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:16 pm

I can't see how you can say prong collars should be banned but choke chains are totally fine :-S.

I'd rather be poked, then suddenly choked.

ha wow would you look at that! I'm a liracle miracle! Very Happy

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Florence24 on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:18 pm

James_Kita wrote:I can't see how you can say prong collars should be banned but choke chains are totally fine :-S.

I'd rather be poked, then suddenly choked.

ha wow would you look at that! I'm a liracle miracle! Very Happy

See you don't know the logic of a choke chain, they don't choke if used correctly, see what I mean people think they just constrict the neck but they aren't designed for that Wink

I did just edit my post to clarify btw Smile

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:30 pm

Admittedly I assumed choke chains chocked, hence the name right Razz (don't use one, atm I don't need to)

But Flo have you looked up prong collars and info about them, rather than going on what they look like and what you assume they do?

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