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prong collars - your views

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Florence24 on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:33 pm

I know plenty of them, James Smile

I just think they should be banned and unable to be bought by everyone of the street, I think you should have to have specific reasons for them and demonstrate you can use it properly having been trained to do so by someone. Sure it wouldn't happen, and probably isn't workable, I just don't think they should be allowed to be sold to anyone who wants one.

What bugs me is how people slam choke chains but never mention slip leads which are very similar although not quite the same principle have the same downfalls.

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:37 pm

I don't have a problem with Choke Chains, Slip leads, Prong collars etc at all.

They can all be effective in correcting bad behaviors without putting to much stress on the dog.

The problem we can all agree on here, is misuse of such teaching tools.

Prong collars should not be used to make your dog look 'Hard' or aggressive!

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Florence24 on Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:49 pm

Bad behaviours, or just behaviours people have allowed to get out of hand/are breed traits?

Milo came on a choke chain and was a very scared dog, leaping about all over the shop. Instead of using his choke chain or putting a prong collar on him because he was 'behaving badly', I stuck a harness on him and a flat collar. When he lunged/tried to run off I grabbed the harness like an anchor so he couldn't get into the road or bash into lamp posts and hurt himself.

He was 'behaving badly' in some people's books, but that's because his previous owners did nothing with him and he had no idea about the world around him and it was a very scarey place.

When I walk Milo with Rupert they both get put in canny collars because I have a bad shoulder and Milo is still a bit reactive, I wouldn't be able to stop them choking themselves on a flat collar (I say them, more Milo he would pull and pull and lean on his collar making it squash his trachea, whereas Rupert would go to the end of his lead but not pull, but I wouldn't be able to get Milo back to heel with one hand, he'd pull me after him!).

I also have a problem with people who have dogs in a normal flat collar and let them lean on it choking themselves. I just think can you not at least put them in a harness if they are an adult so that their chest which is a much stronger area takes the brunt of it sort of thing.

Flat collars really can be bad for dogs who pull, dogs need to learn to walk to heel without aids else you remove the aid or alter it for another and many have no idea how to behave in the new one.

I don't have breeds which are bred to pull/go on ahead so its not like I've had to particularly fight natural instincts, but like Joe Bloggs off the street I don't think prongs/chokes/slips should be quite so readily available without being shown exactly how they work and why.

I do think headcollars are kinder as they cannot cause any compression of the trachea. So, so many dogs end up with a collapsed trachea or have one found when they are used for research/have a PM after death because of aids like choke chains. I would go as far as to say headcollars are kinder than flat collars IF a dog leans and does not have an issue with the headcollar.

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:38 am

There are dangers with ALL training aids, headcollars, prongs, chokes, etc etc

Headcollars can cause serious injuries (more so the halti type ones than the canny) because the alter the dogs posture and can cause spinal and muscle injuries, I know of a dog who slipped a disk in its back when it lunged on a headcollar. Dogs who brace themselves against it and continue to pull can damage muscles in the neck

Chokes are used wrongly by 99% of owners (i.e not trainers), the issue is they DO constrict to nothing, so the dog could do very serious damage. I tried one on Kira a long time ago, I know how to use one, but the issue is she didnt give me a chance she got to the end and continued to pull! I ended up carrying her back home as I wasnt prepared to let her do that to herself.

Flat collars are dangerous for pullers because all the pressure is on a single point on the neck, this is the same for semi-slips and half checks too. I cant stand seeing dogs pulling along gasping

I have a problem with slip leads too, as so many people (mainly seems to be spaniel owners) get one because they see the well behaved ones walking on it, and then allow the dogs to continue dragging them around, and like the chokes they constrict to nothing, so same dangers.

I always thought the prongs looked awful too, but didnt take them at face value and bought one with the intention of trying it on myself, and if it didnt hurt me, then putting it on the dogs and seeing how the reacted. Had they seemed in pain or distressed at any point I would have taken it off and walked them home on a harness. As I've already said, they were absolutely fine and I had 3 very enjoyable walks with happy relaxed dogs

They're not actually that common, I dont know of a single pet shop which has them in stock, I got mine online. I think the advantage of it looking so barbaric is that most people will go 'oh no not trying that!', only people confident enough that they can use them correctly and pure idiots will buy them. And tbh I've never seen a dog walked on one around here.

I will show you on Sunday Flo, trust me, they're not as bad as you think Wink

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Florence24 on Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:03 am

The problem I have Sid, is that Joe Bloggs can go into a shop or online and buy one just like that. I am sure you know exactly what a prong is and how to use it, but so many don't and just plonk it on and off they go tug tug tugging down the street or just letting them lean Sad

I think surely if a dog were to lunge it would get quite a sharp jab depending on the size of the prongs (some seem worse than others)? I agree re spaniel owners, maybe its because spaniels are so keen lol! I hadn't thought about haltis etc in regard to twisting, that is bad. I've never really used one Rupert never liked it so I think he only wore one once.

I imagine it is hard with your breed to teach heel and like you say you tried harnesses etc. I think a lot just think its a quick fix and try it as the first tool before they really know how to use it.

I do like the canny collar, I did use slip leads til we came down here and Rupert had a couple scares off other dogs and I worry too much now about if he pulls away before I can correct, plus I never used to have to correct him before and I would so much here. He takes the canny collar correction much better and I don't feel as though I'm hurting him like I do with a slip.

I saw prongs in the pet shops where I lived before. Haven't round here but I admit have only been to Pets At Home down here Embarassed

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:11 am

Yep Huskies love to pull! They were bred to do it in the 1st place, so its whats most natural to them, but It doesn't mean it can't be controlled, you just have to find the right tools and method Smile

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:23 am

Yea Flo I know what your saying, but my point is that most people will look at it and think 'hell no!' you dont see them around much either so people dont really know too much about them, so arent likely to go looking for them

I dont think you can ban something because of a few numpties. otherwise we'll be banning all types of collars, all headcollars, slip leads etc etc

I have used the canny, its ok, but mine just pulled through it, and Grey hates it with a passion, didnt really enjoy his walks, so this is my last option really

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Florence24 on Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:53 am

I think its more than a few numpties sadly, I see quite a lot of lab crosses with prongs on round here, was all slips and chokes where I was before. Not banned banned but I think they shouldn't be as easy to get hold of and should have instructions. It does bug me with chokes how many people even put them on the wrong way because when they bought it they didn't know there was a right and wrong way Crying or Very sad

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Sat Jun 11, 2011 7:26 am

how do you know they arent using it properly though?

I have never ever seen a a dog wearing one! Must be difference in the area i guess

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:40 am

I have seen a couple though a very rare site, but I can't say I've ever seen a dog that looks in distress on it, infact the few I have seen are either off leash or walking at heal Neutral

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Florence24 on Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:19 pm

I saw a few where I was before and there are a lot in certain areas round here. I've walked most places to find decent areas and round the back of where I live and about half a mile up and round a bit more is a park next to an estate. At about 7pm each night you get loads of people going up there and there were countless boxers/lab crosses/mastiff type dogs with them on. They literally go 'tug tug tug' as they walk the dog, so its constant pressure and release and if their dog wasn't paying attention they'd yank them round with it instead of a quick correction. I don't walk that way but have met them on at least two occasions when walking and had the piss taken out of me for having a golden retriever. They don't come this way too often luckily.

I don't see anyone else on regular walks I go on use them, but I do drive out in the car and go to quieter areas. Every lab I see tends to have a choke chain on as well, and be either dog aggressive, massively fat or both which makes it hard with Rupert's adoration of them Rolling Eyes Embarassed


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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Sat Jun 11, 2011 8:24 pm

agree with the fat lab thing! OMG why do people think that labs should be barrels?!?

Obviously they're not using it the way intended. Your not ment to 'correct' with a prong, it does it on its own. Most of the time it sits loosely on the neck and when they pull it obviously puts pressure on certain areas. It doesnt hurt, but I reckon if they're using it like that then it probably would Sad

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Huskymomma on Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:12 pm

Storm used to pull so much I had a long term pain in my arm and I still cant lift it above my head, which was caused by his pulling. Because he is a Husky X GSD, I think two of the strongest breeds, I mean huskies are used to pull things and GSDs are used as police dogs. He is slightly bigger and stronger than your average Husky.

I got a walking belt, a bungee lead and a canny collar. Thats how I stopped his manic pulling. Not by pinching him or choking him. And that makes me proud.

Now I can walk him using his Ezydog Harness (thanks sid), still only using the belt though as he is way too strong for me to control on a standard lead. Occasionally I bring out the canny to remind him he can walk ahead of me but not pull me too fast.

There is a lot of people I respect and admire for their Husky experience and knowledge, Sid and Gigi to name two (Gigi isnt on here) who have admitted to using them and that is their choice. It doesnt in any way mean I condone it and I would be uncomfortable seeing a dog wearing one. But I would like to try it on my arm when I come on the 17th July, just to see if it really does hurt.

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Sat Jun 11, 2011 9:41 pm

i personally dont think it does, its uncomfortable, but not painful Smile

I have a walking belt, and can walk all 3 on it, but as I said on HO, as part of my family, i like to take them wherever I can, and its times like walking through the middle of town etc that they have to act like they're at least half domesticated! lmao

I never considered it with one, or with 2, but when you have 3 and you're trying to get somewhere its near impossible. I have been pulled into the road more than once, and when we're in the village its not so bad, but if that happened further into town it could be fatal, for me and them

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:45 pm

agree with the fat lab thing! OMG why do people think that labs should be barrels?!
LOL
Yep! I know one ( I think I showed you the pic) its not very nice, see a big obese lab WADDLING about, sounding like they struggle to breathe Sad

tbf Labs are well known for wanting to eat everything, I know dominoes (the fat lab) will eat anything left on the kitchen work top if left within reach! -_-

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Florence24 on Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:14 am

Golden retrievers are the same, dustbins! Rupert's not fat though Wink

All the vets I have been to down here have fat classes for dogs needing to lose weight, I had an appt near the time of one of them once and the majority of them were all labradors. People just give in to those puppy dog eyes Sad

I have to say with a retriever breed I would probably question the need for a prong more than I would with huskies etc. Just because I feel I know at least goldens very well and most are relatively biddable and they aren't the kind to pull like a tank at all. Rupert is in a canny now because of problems which arose in October. I went away to uni, came home and he was just a different dog. Behaving terribly flipping out when he saw labradors (before we had Milo), seemed to be excitement but I just couldn't control him and was falling over several times a walk.

I don't know what it was, I really don't and he had been out of his canny collar for ages. Only reason I put him in it was because as a youngster he'd lunge for road kill and I couldn't physically hold him. Soon as he learnt to think before acting with a bit of maturity we never had the problem again. Some dogs do seem to dislike him, so at the start of meeting dogs like today I now use the canny so I stand more chance of leading him away and redirecting instead of letting a squabble progress.

Grey is a big dog, looks like a powerhouse and you can see he is just bred to go go go. Whilst Rupert can run and could if he wanted to its just not something that's as natural to his breed hence I think very few without behavioural issues would warrant a prong.

Goldens are quite sensitive too I think, Rupert went a bit quiet towards the end of the afternoon etc.

Its definitely important to remember whilst we all love positive reinforcement, all harnesses, collars, headcollars, chains etc cause discomfort if there is any pressure applied. For some if causing a bit more discomfort for a week or two then the dog knows how to walk, I think that better than constant discomfort from constant pulling. Its not a wonderful thought but if you are unable to train heel without any aid whatsoever its something we have to face I think.

For a dog like Rupert I do think the canny collar is much more suitable, he is a very soft/sensitive character and I don't think he'd enjoy being out wearing a prong, he doesn't really like the canny but will go in it. Used to walk him on a slip lead til the October problems, he was definitely far happier in that than he was his canny or anything else...

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Sid_Wolf on Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:22 am

haha you can see why I use one cant you!?!?! I will never think I dont need my belt again!

I really didnt want to have him on the prong while walking around the lake today, that wasnt the idea at all, but Isimply couldnt hold him on his harness. I didnt like the way he got it off though so from now on it will always be attached by a double ended lead to another collar or his harness.

Grey finds cannys incredibly aversive, no idea why, he seems to hate things over his nose, he is much more relaxed with the prong which I'm very pleased about!

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:27 am

Grey is a beast! he's so fecking Strong! Neutral he could've pulled all 3 of us today on a rig I reckon! Razz

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Florence24 on Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:34 am

That's it some dogs are more and less bothered by different things I suppose. Rupert even now sometimes still dislikes his canny but he will wear it and walk on it its not like he's throwing himself on the floor, he just tries to itch it off if you stand still for too long but who wouldn't do that Laughing


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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by voodoolizard on Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:53 am

i love prong collars...if they are used correctly in the first ten minutes of wearing one they dog WILL NOT pull.. so if the dog doesnt pull how can they hurt ??

prong collars are only a training tool and i have gone to prongs and progressed with training to a half check chain collar.. but if walk all 3 of my dogs alone i still use prongs on 2 of them.

choak chains are the most horrible things ever.. most dogs just continue to pull on them and choak themselves..


if anyone wants to use a prong and needs help fitting them and using them give me a shout..

in the last year i have got 5 friends over to prongs and they have never looked back..
its much better to walk down the road with 3 well behaved dogs on prongs rather than be pulled over !!
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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:18 am

Indeed!

Good to hear you had such great success! Smile

I saw a woman yday with a Husky x GSD, big strong boy.

She had him on a full metal choke chain, I can see why she used it, She has a walking stick. But the way she was using the choke chain was crazy! and she just shouted at him, obviously had no idea what she was doing.

I did reccomend a prong to her, But she didnt seem keen on the idea -_-'

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Florence24 on Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:57 am

Thing is a choke chain really isn't bad if used properly. Its not even really called a choke chain that's just the nickname, but it isn't designed to choke at all.

I have to say even after this thread I would strongly question anyone with say a golden retriever using a prong/choke...Embarassed

ETA: By this I mean not a dog with serious issues but just a normal kind of golden say...

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Dani'n'Jack on Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:02 am

i have no personal opinion either way really, never had to us anything other the collar and lead with any dog ive had including Jack, (who has never pulled, he had a natural desire to follow so used that to my advantage)

as long as the tool is used correctly and is not used for inflicting pain, then i am all for it.

Just annoys me when people dont know what they are doing with these tools and end up upsetting their dog psychologically. which is really hard to reverse
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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by James_Kita on Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:19 am

Kita is the same, her desire is to follow, not to lead, which makes teaching her to pull (currently trying to train her for when I get a pawtrekkar) very difficult! Razz

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Re: prong collars - your views

Post by Dani'n'Jack on Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:26 am

have u tried taking her on a bike ride then once shes running, slow down and allow her to go in front.

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